Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 23, 2008 at 3:24pm

I understand that, and that may bar a good deal of us from doing anything for the event. If that is the case, then the other thread will effectively decide that.



R a c h e l S e e d said:

Thanks for taking the initiative to write this up, Bil. However, I wouldn't sign this because the third element not mentioned in this letter is lack of payment. That, to me, is still a deal-breaker.

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Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 23, 2008 at 3:27pm

Good point.

Going to get the kiddo, but will add to my post in the other thread when I get back.

bb

Charles Silver said:

Bil, you may want to specify how a photo credit should look. I would suggest something like this:

Photography © and donated to Forecastle by Charles Silver - All Rig...

with the link to a website or anyplace else the photographer desires. In this case I just linked to my profile at LPC.

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Permalink Reply by Erin on July 23, 2008 at 3:41pm

I have been reading along with this thread since it started, but hadn't commented yet because I was unsure of how I felt about it. For me, Forecastle is an event I would go to anyway, and VIP tickets to photograph a show I'd like to attend and see a couple of my favorite artists (ZTrip and Del especially) seemed okay to me. The tipping point for me however was not getting credit AND not being able to edit your own shots. I mean, if I photographed a wedding I wouldn't hand my CF card over to the bride at the end of the night and let her copy all my shots, even if the bride was my best friend and as a gift I shot her wedding for free. That's just something I wouldn't expect from any photographer. I would at least like to edit down my keepers and tossers - I wouldn't be too pleased if I saw one of my shots online credited to me and it was a shot I absolutely hated and didn't want showcased as my work.

I'm really pleased to see the letter that Bil has drafted. Many times on this site, even outside of this issue, we have talked about wanting to raise the bar of photography - and to do that we need to relay our issues to the clients. Sitting here on our own forum that most of them will never see bitching and moaning about what we think is unfair isn't going to do a lot of good. I'm really happy to see Bil try and bridge that gap and give us a voice. They can take it or leave it, but at least we made ourselves heard. It's a good letter, I'll put my name to it.

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Permalink Reply by Charles Silver on July 23, 2008 at 3:55pm

Rachel,

I understand clearly where you are coming from and I agree.

My thinking is that by signing the letter we are only taking a collective stand for proper credit, creative control, well deserved respect, acceptable compensation and acknowledgment of our contributions/donations to this and other similar events or opportunities.

Signing does not mean we have agreed to participate in the event, that is a separate issue and will be decided by each photographer individually and apart from these minimal demands.

We may want to use these demands as a starting point for some type of document outlining our collective professional ethics and expectations. I believe something along these lines will only be to our benefit in the future. We can't control pricing (price fixing) but this way we can have some control over our other practices and raise our status as special people with cameras and extraordinary visual skills deserving of a different level of appreciation than just anyone who happens to have a camera.

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Permalink Reply by Laura on July 23, 2008 at 4:08pm

Yes, we are. But in the content of the letter I wasn't sure how you meant it. And I just have to say, unlike a lot of other people here, Forecastle is NOT an event I would be attending anyway. So for me it is purely about the opportunity to photograph an event for credit and the potential to pad my experience.

Bil Brown said:

I only meant in the realm of photography in Louisville.

Which we are active in trying to do something about, right.

Laura said:

Looks like a good letter to me. I have a slight issue with the assumption that we're all (politically?) "progressive" and activists ourselves, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant or if you meant artistically pushing the bar so I'll just let it go.

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Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 23, 2008 at 5:22pm

I just spoke about an hour ago to the Media relations manager for Forecastle, Leslie and then later Brian Bohannon on the phone. He actually didn't know about our site and joined.

http://www.louisvillephoto.org/profile/BrianBohannon

We spoke at length, and I will not add here what he said - he will get here soon enough. But the gist is

1) He absolutely shares our concerns;
2) There will be a place on the website for our individual photo credit, and on each photo.

I will let him explain the points for the email and what it meant when he finds the thread here.

bb

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Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 23, 2008 at 5:33pm

Again, Charles - I totally agree.

We are just a small collective, but organizations like AIGA and others have ethical standards and professional behaviors - these would be a good start (I have a thread about them somewhere)

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/design-business-and-ethics

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/standards-professional-practice

Also, NO!SPEC also is a website and organization for designers that work without speculative work (not entirely the point here, but worth taking a look at).

http://www.no-spec.com/



Photography isn't exactly design, obviously - but some of these concerns are of similar interest.

bb



Charles Silver said:

We may want to use these demands as a starting point for some type of document outlining our collective professional ethics and expectations. I believe something along these lines will only be to our benefit in the future. We can't control pricing (price fixing) but this way we can have some control over our other practices and raise our status as special people with cameras and extraordinary visual skills deserving of a different level of appreciation than just anyone who happens to have a camera.

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Permalink Reply by Jacob Zimmer on July 25, 2008 at 4:43pm

OK, well, if Forecastle is an all-volunteer organization, then I would classify it in the same category as charity. I thought someone posted early on that it was a business. Still, as a freelance audio, video & lighting tech and producer, I have a hard time imagining that all the sound equipment and operators are unpaid.

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Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 25, 2008 at 4:57pm

What was explained to me was simple.

The organizer JK still lives at home with his parents.
His father runs a business that donates time and services.
Leslie is the manager of "Keep Louisville Weird" and donates services.
DooWop donates time and services, as does Mom's
Various other businesses donate time as services.
None of the organizers get paid.
None of the businesses get paid, unless they have a booth where they can sell what not there during.
The volunteers get in for free and do not get paid.
Various other organizations and businesses are offered booths and exposure and volunteer and do not get paid.
The cost of a ticket pays for the bands, keynote, and travel, and whatnot.
In years past the keynote has turned over their perdium back to the festival.
The festival is for "Art, Activism, and Music" so it is therefore an "Alternative" festival and not about money as much is it is about edu-tainment.

The Forecastle festival is idealism at work. It is where this lack of money beneficial to the "greater good" thing is coming from. It is not exactly all that supportive of capitalism. It is much more anarchist in idealism, and democratic in action, and very very "green" down to the hemp activism booths.

Think of what a Greatful Dead parking-lot would be if other bands played there and the dead show invited the entire community to pay a little something to get in.

There you have it.

Jacob Zimmer said:

OK, well, if Forecastle is an all-volunteer organization, then I would classify it in the same category as charity. I thought someone posted early on that it was a business. Still, as a freelance audio, video & lighting tech and producer, I have a hard time imagining that all the sound equipment and operators are unpaid.

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Permalink Reply by R a c h e l S e e d on July 25, 2008 at 5:52pm

Hmm. Is that to say that the ultimate goal, say 5 or 10 years down the line, is not to make it a profitable venture? From what I understand, it is a full time job for JK, right? I am just trying to understand if no one is getting paid on purpose, or if the ultimate intention is for people to make a buck off of this.

By the way, did anyone ready Peter Berkowitz's review of all the bands?

http://www.velocityweekly.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080723/V...

Ironically, I will be shooting this fest after all--but for Velocity.
Bil Brown said:

What was explained to me was simple.

The organizer JK still lives at home with his parents.
His father runs a business that donates time and services.
Leslie is the manager of "Keep Louisville Weird" and donates services.
DooWop donates time and services, as does Mom's
Various other businesses donate time as services.
None of the organizers get paid.
None of the businesses get paid, unless they have a booth where they can sell what not there during.
The volunteers get in for free and do not get paid.
Various other organizations and businesses are offered booths and exposure and volunteer and do not get paid.
The cost of a ticket pays for the bands, keynote, and travel, and whatnot.
In years past the keynote has turned over their perdium back to the festival.
The festival is for "Art, Activism, and Music" so it is therefore an "Alternative" festival and not about money as much is it is about edu-tainment.

The Forecastle festival is idealism at work. It is where this lack of money beneficial to the "greater good" thing is coming from. It is not exactly all that supportive of capitalism. It is much more anarchist in idealism, and democratic in action, and very very "green" down to the hemp activism booths.

Think of what a Greatful Dead parking-lot would be if other bands played there and the dead show invited the entire community to pay a little something to get in.

There you have it.

Jacob Zimmer said:

OK, well, if Forecastle is an all-volunteer organization, then I would classify it in the same category as charity. I thought someone posted early on that it was a business. Still, as a freelance audio, video & lighting tech and producer, I have a hard time imagining that all the sound equipment and operators are unpaid.

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Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 25, 2008 at 6:05pm

"This is a headliner? This sounds like what happens when guys who used to play together in high school get together at their 25th high school reunion and jam one more time."

I had to giggle.


Oh, and since you are shooting and will be there afterall - why not ask JK, he is approachable.



Have fun pimping it for gannett ^_~

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Permalink Reply by R a c h e l S e e d on July 25, 2008 at 9:29pm

I thought his article was hilarious, and often quite true. Gannett pays a lot of my bills, what can I say.


Bil Brown said:

"This is a headliner? This sounds like what happens when guys who used to play together in high school get together at their 25th high school reunion and jam one more time."

I had to giggle.


Oh, and since you are shooting and will be there afterall - why not ask JK, he is approachable.



Have fun pimping it for gannett ^_~

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