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Permalink Reply by Rhonda L. Harrington on July 16, 2008 at 7:24pm

I'm amused that they are trying to make it sound like an HONOR to be selected to photograph the event. Only those with the swankiest skills and equiptment will be chosen. If you win the contest, working for free is your prize! Good luck everybody!

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Permalink Reply by Lynn Marie Heick on July 16, 2008 at 9:00pm

I picked up a Leo today and saw the big ad for this event. There is a rather large list of sponsors and then under that a rather large list of "volunteers". Why so many?
does it have to do with the activism theme? Do you think there were volunteers at Woodstock. Everyone keeps saying you are working for free but you do get something in return for your work. Kenetic used to choose a group of photographers from this area to cover the Kentucky Derby. I don't know if they got paid. They would use Kenetics equipment or something like that but Kenetic would get all the right to the images taken of the race. I had some friend that did it year after year. They were pretty proud to be one of these photographers. I saw the images on the Forecastle website and it does look like fun. If this was the 70's I would be all over this. Oh the fun that would be had. Maybe I will buy a ticket. Maybe I will bring my camera. I will be the one that looks like someones mom. I guess what I am trying to say is that this may be the one exception to the rule. Peace love and pass it this way.

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Permalink Reply by Jacob Zimmer on July 17, 2008 at 5:58am

Yeah Lynn, I saw that today too and thought if my logo was on the list of sponsors (not the volunteers at the bottom) then I might consider that a trade since that ad and poster has a wide distribution.

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Permalink Reply by R a c h e l S e e d on July 17, 2008 at 11:17pm

I, too, received said famous email from BB about Forecastle and am relieved to see I was not the only one taken aback by it.

First of all, I completely agree that to work for free as a so-called "honor" is an insulting prospect, and one that degrades the industry. I don't care how nice the festival organizers are (and besides I have heard otherwise), I think it's incredibly presumptuous of them to do so. I admit I am a bit baffled by some respectable photographers agreeing to this, too. In what other industries are things given away so freely to for-profit ventures?

That said, I admit that if I had all-access to a show with Radiohead, Wilco, PJ Harvey, The Shins, and other personal favorites, I *might* consider it--with self-imposed restrictions on use and rights. However, I am all together uninspired by the line-up and therefore their proposal just angers me further. As Jacob said, if it was a *fair* trade that could be a different matter. I'd like to see the fesitval's budget and bottom line and have a conversation with them after that.

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Permalink Reply by Laura on July 22, 2008 at 4:42pm

Wow! I just came across this thread. I'm so glad I'm not alone in being put off by this whole situation. Free service aside, this is what ultimately set me off and made me officially decline my services ...

It's unpaid, but with great potential for swag from the sponsors... You retain all copyright to the images and grant JK and Forecastle Fest license to use the images. (And JK looks at every image taken, too, to do his own edit.) We'll have a place to download a copy of your images onsite where we'll apply metadata and collect all the photos as they're shot throughout the day to a hard drive.

I never have been and never will be comfortable with the idea of letting someone else edit my work. To me this is an even bigger slap in the face than them asking for it to be done free.

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Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 22, 2008 at 6:31pm

The founder of Forecastle, JK McKnight's father is the CEO of VIA Studio.

VIA doesn't work for free. Nor does it do spec. And touts a history of creative work and award winning work at that in Louisville.

The LEO ad may have been trade for services on Forecastle's behalf by VIA who did the LEO website, but doubtful.

Forecastle doesn't have a budget for PR or Photography. I think Jeff Gaither's illustration was also a freebee, in trade for publicity.

Quite frankly, no one in that realm of indie bullshit has a budget.

The bands are paid. The focus is on the bands. Hardly anyone else is paid.

Last year, a good deal of the sponsorship was free amps and lights and other free stuff. The festival works on trade.

It is working on the same premise as Ron Whitehead's INSOMNIACATHONs of years past... big names, big budgets, no one (or few folks) gets paid.

I have mixed feelings.

If you want to be paid for something like this. Go to an entirely corporate sponsored festival. Chances are, unless you are a serious photographer with a serious name you won't be hired for more than an hourly rate of about a dollar above min wage - if at all. What Forecastle is offering is what is regularly offered in 2008.

And yes, our industry is dying. We have to change the way we work or die with it.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like spec work or giving away shot for free.

However, I like our community and I like to give back to in with my art when I can.

That said, I don't have time to fuck around with Forecastle this year - paid work takes precedence.

That said, with the bands they have there and the possibilities of creative stock being sold - being comped in might not be such a bad idea.

I don't know... do what you folks want.

If you aren't comfortable with this that and the other, best way to deal with it don't do it.

There are bigger fish to fry then Forecastle. Cut them some slack.

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Permalink Reply by R a c h e l S e e d on July 22, 2008 at 6:47pm

You're right, Bil, there are bigger fish to fry. But, I think this incident is just a good example of the challenges we face today, so I think it's great that we are all talking about it. This may just be Forcastle, but I am sure we could each come up with similar incidents in perhaps more important circumstances that are worthy of action.

To me, it's just the flip idea that photography is an extra that can be gotten for free that is quite upsetting.

<<
There are bigger fish to fry then Forecastle. Cut them some slack.>>

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Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 22, 2008 at 6:56pm

I know Rachel. We all, myself included, tend to get our respective pantieloons in a knot when people ask us to work for less than what we feel we are worth. When I get responses like this, I usually give them my day rate and go about my business.

If everyone did that, for everything, then we would maybe be able to change the marketplace.

We are 200 strong... right...

Might just be enough to make a dent...

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Armbrust on July 22, 2008 at 10:32pm

The shitty thing about the whole deal is that none of the photographers are given credit for their images. Gaither gets credit for his poster, as does EVERY other person involved. Talk about a crappy deal...

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Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 23, 2008 at 1:00am

I am sure if JK is aware of the dissent, then there will be something done about it.

I'll talk to Kelly.

bb

Ryan Armbrust said:

The shitty thing about the whole deal is that none of the photographers are given credit for their images. Gaither gets credit for his poster, as does EVERY other person involved. Talk about a crappy deal...

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Permalink Reply by Bil Brown on July 23, 2008 at 10:05am

Here are some more of my thoughts on the whole thing.

Photography is devalued because, well, everyone can buy a pretty decent DSLR for cheap - or even a good quality P&S like the G9. Not everyone has a trained eye, sure - but anyone can be a "photographer" and since Rodney King, YouTube, Flickr, Photobucket and the like - everyone is expected to be.

Rachel, you work for Murphy's - you see this every day. People coming in and having pretty decent jobs and paying for equipment they don't need and will use once in awhile.

If you make your living as a photographer - as an event photographer, as a portrait or wedding photographer, etc - this of course will piss you off. Clients will not understand quality over the like or will or do after something is completely fucked up... but hey... there are creative ways around that when everyone has a camera.

I can imagine JK and company saying, "Fuck, we don't have the budget this year for an official photographer - why don't we do what the Beastie Boys did and let EVERYONE in with a camera and let it be a shot gun blast effect - surely we will get SOMETHING..."

Some will "rise to the top." Well, fuck, who do you think those photos will be? Who knows, right? Let's hope that at least some of us would be part of that crem brule...

No, you don't get credit. But you can use it in your portfolio. If the photo becomes somewhat "famous" - then people see that photo in your port and immediately want you for it.

No, this does not pay your bills. You can go our and shoot some smuck's wedding and the only people that will see the photos will be the bride, groom, and bridezilla's rents. Cool.

What is the value of your work, in dollars? Who knows better that you?

What is the value of local, or national PR in dollars? Who will know that you weren't hired for the job - chances are no one you don't tell.

Chances are, if you are starting out or a median range pro, this is relative.

Would you be at Forecastle anyway? Who was down at the P-Funk show taking photos for nothing? A bunch of people, according to Flickr. Hey wait... doesn't Getty dip into Flickr now? Yeah, hey, they pay something... so does Photoshelter, and they pay much more... However, neither of these options are hiring you as an event photographer for an outdoor event.

Do you give a shit enough to even be having this conversation (I'm more asking myself then you, really)?


I am all for not doing anything on spec. I am all for getting paid - as I have pushed out regularly in this forum. I am also much better at choosing my battles then going after a little burgeoning rock concert in Louisville that is trying to take this community to the next level and "keep Louisville weird."

Again, just do what you want.

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Permalink Reply by Christina on July 23, 2008 at 10:14am

So .. here is a question that may seem pretty basic .. but I have to ask.

Reading this:
"You retain all copyright to the images and grant JK and Forecastle Fest license to use the images. (And JK looks at every image taken, too, to do his own edit.)"

What 'can' Forecastle do with the photo?

Let's say you get lucky and catch that amazing photo that gets all the attention. Can they sell it on their own and make cash off of it? Or is it only that they have the right to use it without profiting from it as well. I mean I'm guessing that there's no pre-written agreement so is there really a limit to what they can do with it?

Can they completely alter it, making it a totally different image, which in essence strips you of your copyright rights, and sell it that way?

I've never dealt with something like this, so I'll say I'm a bit uneducated in the rights and limitations of an offering like this. So .. if anyone can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it .. :o)

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