Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by bill byrd on July 15, 2008 at 6:18pm

Matt Stone said:

Christina said:

I see your point. I guess I appreciate the fact that I don't end up in those positions because that would be a hard one to make. You're definitely stronger than I am for being able to take the good with the bad.

It's all good. Hey, none of us I know that shoot for newspapers or wire services like to cover tragedy. I know Brian doesn't. I don't. But when it happens, it's part of your job. You can cover it and still be sensitive.

But I'm glad you brought up the original topic. This is good stuff to talk about...because it all affects us now or in the future. If I don't know how to shoot a subject the right way, I would probably refer the job to someone who knows how. I wouldn't do the job just for the experience and give away my images. Time is valuable. Images are valuable. (All the really great photographers I personally know don't shoot for free. Heck, even ones that aren't that great but are good with business don't shoot for free.)

And I guess I'm old because hanging backstage isn't my thing. I don't take issue if you want to; that's your perogative. My wife said it best..."The only autograph I want is when they sign their name on a check to me..."

I have a friend who was shooting the beatles for a year as a part of the tour group
he never got paid a dime from the beatles but made a ton off them he was just a young fan.
if your work is good enough you will get paid no need to worry about a kid shooting his fav
band for free that is up to him maybe these bands will blow up and he will make a ton off it
if you are worried about a short supply of jobs kick yourself up a notch
its guys that dont give a shit about the jobs and just care about getting paid thats the prob
so if jessica alba wants me too shoot her for free ??

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Permalink Reply by Eric Patterson on July 15, 2008 at 6:54pm

...to compare the supply and demand of not only photographers but of imagery in general of 1965 to 2008 is a bit misleading. Unless you end up on the beach with Brad & Angie, and photograph their newest, (or any other rare, opportune moments of life) there are no tons to be made.

I will agree that the cream will eventually rise, and the better work will be seen. But will it be paid for ? And if so, will anyone be able to make a living doing it.
The conflict of this topic/thread is not for the weekend shooter.

It's not the weekend shooters that queer the pot by giving away work.
It's really more about the people who WANT to make a living in photography flooding the market with free product.

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Permalink Reply by Matt Stone on July 15, 2008 at 7:29pm

"its guys that dont give a shit about the jobs and just care about getting paid thats the prob"
Not really. They still want to get paid and won't work for free. If they don't care, and their images aren't cutting it for the client, they probably won't get hired again. Pretty simple, actually.

Trust me, I care about the jobs I shoot. But I still want to get paid. I shoot a lot better knowing I'm getting paid for it.

"..to compare the supply and demand of not only photographers but of imagery in general of 1965 to 2008 is a bit misleading. Unless you end up on the beach with Brad & Angie, and photograph their newest, (or any other rare, opportune moments of life) there are no tons to be made."

Exactly, Eric. Bill, your friend hit the photo lottery if he shot the beatles in 1965. No Rights grabs. No contract signing your rights away. Can you imagine if they did that today? Most promoters want exclusive rights to your images. 1965 and 2008 are MUCH different in way photography business is being done.

Dude, I don't care if you want to shoot your mate's band for free. Have at it. That's not the point. This whole topic stemmed from an organization that makes money, looking for free work. To me, that's not very cool.

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Permalink Reply by bill byrd on July 15, 2008 at 7:35pm

Eric Patterson said:

...to compare the supply and demand of not only photographers but of imagery in general of 1965 to 2008 is a bit misleading. Unless you end up on the beach with Brad & Angie, and photograph their newest, (or any other rare, opportune moments of life) there are no tons to be made.

I will agree that the cream will eventually rise, and the better work will be seen. But will it be paid for ? And if so, will anyone be able to make a living doing it.
The conflict of this topic/thread is not for the weekend shooter.

It's not the weekend shooters that queer the pot by giving away work.
It's really more about the people who WANT to make a living in photography flooding the market with free product.

i see what you mean and you put it nicely
you guys are great photogs and i am proud to live in a city with guys like you
but money is not the point of art
make a living doing what you love and dont let money censor your work or its just work

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Permalink Reply by Jacob Zimmer on July 15, 2008 at 8:31pm

bill byrd said:
make a living doing what you love and dont let money censor your work or its just work.

Can you elaborate on that statement? Of course money "censors" work. Did your camera grow on a tree or come from Santa Claus? The more money I make as a business, the more equipment (tools) I have to be artistic.

---

This same discussion happens in the music industry. I have seen very talented artists fail because they had poor business sense. And Forecastle is in the business of art. Since the audio companies and technicians are getting paid, the performers are getting paid (I guarantee you Kennedy has a nice speaking fee) why should the photographers give their talents away to a business?

---

This same thing also happens with models. Talented models do shows and shoots for free because they think it's fun and enjoy the attention. Of course the "exposure" line is tossed around. Future clients viewing a portfolio are going to be more impressed that you did a paid job rather than worked for free. The problem in Louisville is scam "agencies" actually manipulating the models into paying them!

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Permalink Reply by Eric Patterson on July 15, 2008 at 9:30pm

BB and Charles are better suited for the art vs. photography discussion. And I think introducing art into this thread is a bit off topic.
Matt summed it up in his last paragraph, and I'll reinterate. If Luna or anyone else wants to shoot the gig's for admission and a belly full of free hotdogs, knock yourself out.
It's bothersome that the full-time, makes-a-living photog in charge of the photography of forecastle is asking people "what type equipment do you own and can you put up online gallerys". Last I checked, none of that stuff is free.

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Permalink Reply by bill byrd on July 15, 2008 at 10:08pm

Dudes i got this e-mail today from a potential client just after posting on this topic
ha ha we talked to her mother in law
Hello!


Thanks for your offer, but I am actually a model and have worked with photographers that have agreed to shoot my wedding for free.


Thanks Again,

name

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Permalink Reply by Matt Stone on July 15, 2008 at 10:25pm

bill byrd said:

Dudes i got this e-mail today from a potential client just after posting on this topic
ha ha we talked to her mother in law
Hello!


Thanks for your offer, but I am actually a model and have worked with photographers that have agreed to shoot my wedding for free.


Thanks Again,

name

LOL. Yeah, I would LOVE to shoot a wedding for free...Don't expect much from those offering to shoot for free. You get what you pay for.

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Armbrust on July 15, 2008 at 11:22pm

I am STILL trying to swallow the fact that Forecastle is asking folks about the quality of gear they will be using to shoot FREE pics of their event!

WOW, huge balls!

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Permalink Reply by Christina on July 16, 2008 at 9:18am

i think adam's email and mine were similar, except brian just forwarded me what he sent out to other people after he called me on the phone.

i did not realize that the site didn't even credit the photos with their associated photos .. but then again maybe the photogs 'working' it are in fact keeping the good stuff and giving them the junk left over, which has been said in this thread before. however, the idea of them asking you to work for them, for free, turn over the photos, and get zero recognition, is pretty crappy. plus now that i know brian's a paid photog and yet he tries to solicit free help is annoying.

anyway .. something else to chew on so here it is ..



Hey Christina, here's some general information I've already sent out:

> Hey folks,
>
> Thanks for answering the call to shoot Forecastle Fest 2008. There's plenty to document with awesome access to the highly energetic and diverse scene that Forecastle has become, and we truly appreciate you offering your take on the experience. You're all welcome to contribute as much as you're able. There's much to cover!
>
> Basically, we're documenting the entire weekend of performances, including the parties, the camping, the bands being interviewed, everything. It's gathered to produce the next year's promotional material (see the website and go to media to see last years still and video: http://www.forecastlefest.com/index.php). This a great event for getting shooting experience, building portfolio, connections, stock images and the pure joy of shooting a really cool scene with great music and people. It's unpaid, but with great potential for swag from the sponsors... You retain all copyright to the images and grant JK and Forecastle Fest license to use the images. (And JK looks at every image taken, too, to do his own edit.) We'll have a place to download a copy of your images onsite where we'll apply metadata and collect all the photos as they're shot throughout the day to a hard drive. We have a secure press area for you to drop off extra gear, computer, etc., to set off and shoot from and return to with your photos and catch a breath.
>
> So that's the basics. Would you please tell me more about yourselves, by giving me your contact info so I may call you, your gear (especially longest/fastest lenses) and availability? Some of you included some of this in your first email, but if you didn't, and you have photos online to see, please send me a link. I'll get in touch over the next few days to answer your questions, and send more info as we get closer.
>
> Looking forward to hearing from you all and working with you this year!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian

That's the deal, so let me know ASAP.

Thanks,

BB

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Armbrust on July 16, 2008 at 11:58am

It's unpaid, but with great potential for swag from the sponsors...

Damn! They are not even, FOR SURE, giving you anything!
It just keeps getting better and better.

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Permalink Reply by Jacob Zimmer on July 16, 2008 at 6:24pm

Tell Brian to look at this thread and explain himself.

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