Making your own way,...
I have read all too many posts that have lacked a certain, civility as members of this forum debate (and insult) their way along trying to prove their point. Professionals, although having paid their dues (and taxes) are labelled "snobs" by the newbees who think that by using their label of "freelance" excuses their illegal activity. We have been accused of "forgetting" where we came from and how we got started. Again a lame (more rude) attempt to divide this collective than should be posted openly. Comments like "narrow minded views of photography" and other condecending remarks serve no purpose but, to create a greater divide about these members. We all need to take a deep breath and calmly look at the facts.
I am a professional. Been making my way as a photographer for decades. I DO remember where I came from and how I got here. As most old pros we all started out working for someone else. A tabloid, newspaper, magazine or even our high school yearbook. If we were paid other people (our employers) paid the taxes. I sold photos in high school to local papers for $5.00 per photo used. Yes, while working for the university I shot for friends for nothing and for fellow students for the promise of an evenings meal. Usually experimenting and always gaining experience. But, after years of honing my skills (and four degrees) I was ready to make the leap to independent professional. As it has been for centuries for any artisian we have labored, guided by mentors (or our Boss) often failing, until we had reached a sufficient level of expertise to call ourselves "professional". We then stepped out, on our own, created a business and then offered our services to the public. That has all changed with digital photography. Now anyone who thinks he can tune a TV screen now wants to jump straight into the business, without paying any dues, without suffering the unavoidable failures, without legally forming a business and they immediately start solicitating business with little, to no, experience. They will still suffer those unavoidable failures but, it will be their customers who truely suffer and the view of our profession, as a whole, will be tarnished because of their over zealous rush to shortcut the process.
Just a few years ago we had to KNOW, from training & experience, that we got the shot right and then move on. Now you referrence your screen every shot or two and pat yourself on the back as if you have accomplished great art. Hell, I know newbees (but, calling themselves professional) here in Louisville who have never owned a light meter must less a studio flash meter. There are newbees that only shoot outdoors either because of a lack of studio space or to cover over a lack of knowledge concerning studio lighting. Again this does not make you a pariha just a non-professional newbee, a hobbyist. It is amazing to see the crap that is posted, the worst of it (including porn) often titled "fine art". There is no art to a badly composed, poorly lit photo of a kid sitting in your backyard with telephone poles and clothes lines in the background. But, by the opposite token, I have seen the most beautiful of images taken by a hobbyist, even if it was by accident.
All of this boils down to the fact that you can start anywhere to begin your journey to professionalism but, if you have not obtained the training and experience, created a business and followed the legal route you have not completed your journey.
AND as a shamless plug for the PPAGL, that is why we created a novice level within our membership. A level where newbees, beginners or hobbyists, are welcomed, appreciated and hopefully helped along the path. We also have professional level members who offer to mentor and everyone in our organization (I hope) is willing to answer questions and assist the struggling beginner or even the advanced amateurs with areas that they are unfamiliar with.
My old Pappy said, " don't put the word professional in front of your name until you are one 'cause if you do and you screw it up or turn it down your customer won't call back. And neither will their friends".
In other words, "learn to do it the right way or learn to say,'would you like fries with that.'"
I am a professional. Been making my way as a photographer for decades. I DO remember where I came from and how I got here. As most old pros we all started out working for someone else. A tabloid, newspaper, magazine or even our high school yearbook. If we were paid other people (our employers) paid the taxes. I sold photos in high school to local papers for $5.00 per photo used. Yes, while working for the university I shot for friends for nothing and for fellow students for the promise of an evenings meal. Usually experimenting and always gaining experience. But, after years of honing my skills (and four degrees) I was ready to make the leap to independent professional. As it has been for centuries for any artisian we have labored, guided by mentors (or our Boss) often failing, until we had reached a sufficient level of expertise to call ourselves "professional". We then stepped out, on our own, created a business and then offered our services to the public. That has all changed with digital photography. Now anyone who thinks he can tune a TV screen now wants to jump straight into the business, without paying any dues, without suffering the unavoidable failures, without legally forming a business and they immediately start solicitating business with little, to no, experience. They will still suffer those unavoidable failures but, it will be their customers who truely suffer and the view of our profession, as a whole, will be tarnished because of their over zealous rush to shortcut the process.
Just a few years ago we had to KNOW, from training & experience, that we got the shot right and then move on. Now you referrence your screen every shot or two and pat yourself on the back as if you have accomplished great art. Hell, I know newbees (but, calling themselves professional) here in Louisville who have never owned a light meter must less a studio flash meter. There are newbees that only shoot outdoors either because of a lack of studio space or to cover over a lack of knowledge concerning studio lighting. Again this does not make you a pariha just a non-professional newbee, a hobbyist. It is amazing to see the crap that is posted, the worst of it (including porn) often titled "fine art". There is no art to a badly composed, poorly lit photo of a kid sitting in your backyard with telephone poles and clothes lines in the background. But, by the opposite token, I have seen the most beautiful of images taken by a hobbyist, even if it was by accident.
All of this boils down to the fact that you can start anywhere to begin your journey to professionalism but, if you have not obtained the training and experience, created a business and followed the legal route you have not completed your journey.
AND as a shamless plug for the PPAGL, that is why we created a novice level within our membership. A level where newbees, beginners or hobbyists, are welcomed, appreciated and hopefully helped along the path. We also have professional level members who offer to mentor and everyone in our organization (I hope) is willing to answer questions and assist the struggling beginner or even the advanced amateurs with areas that they are unfamiliar with.
My old Pappy said, " don't put the word professional in front of your name until you are one 'cause if you do and you screw it up or turn it down your customer won't call back. And neither will their friends".
In other words, "learn to do it the right way or learn to say,'would you like fries with that.'"
Tags: PPAGL, amateur, beginnings, newbee, professional
Replies are closed for this discussion.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Christina Gnadinger on -
I got bored and quit reading. There's a difference between making a statement or point and just sounding whiny. It's also nice to see someone who has nothing to do with the group come in one day and insult everyone. That's great networking strategies there..
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Permalink Reply by Charles on -
What's the deal with the PPAGL?.....it seems that arrogant condescending people flock to it.
You're a great photog and everything Yono but your rant is no different than the rants you're criticizing. You too are now squarely in the 'dividing' column. I didn't see any olive branch or an offer to bury the hatchet anywhere in your statements. There's plenty enough evidence and basis in the threads for some being labeled as snobs.
Also, any help you offered is linked to the PPAGL....is that all LPC is the the PPAGL?" Recruiting grounds? How about offering some "How to" posts in LPC or something? You post pics in here every once in a while then walk in today and blast away. I'm not impressed by your decades of experience or your brand of "professionalism". Sorry Dude....not trying to be confrontational. I'm more disappointed than anything. Is this all there is in the "professional" world? Every time somebody claims they're "professional", they do so with harshness, disdain and a general lack of repsect of any kind for the "newbies" which you yourself have demonstrated. Because I don't have the money to go out and get legitimized in one day, I'm guilty according to you of illegal activity. Thanks....remind me not to vote for you if you ever run for office of 'judge'. Then again, I'm not trying to hustle up all kinds of business or undercut the pros. Take a chill pill already. -
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Permalink Reply by Alice Thompson on -
Wow. Impressive. PPAGL must be really impressed to have you as their spokesperson. Any remote thoughts I may have ever had about looking into a hobbyist membership at PPAGL have been completely thrown out the window after your ringing endorsement. Charles, I don't think you have to worry about being confrontational with Yono. This post started with "confrontational" in the very first paragraph.
Yono, yay for you. Enjoy your career. I know it makes no difference to you, but I can guarantee I'll never refer anyone to you next time I know someone who needs to hire a professional photog. Word of mouth (both good and bad) does tend to spread.
I'm not even going to dignify this crap attitude with responding to each of your points. I don't claim to be a professional. However, personally I am happy with the quality of photography I do. I will always have room for improvement and that's part of the fun for me.
And you wonder why sometimes the "pros" (and I use that term loosely here for someone who fires off a diatribe like this) are considered "snobs"??? I'm with Christina - what's your point for being here? Oh wait. Don't bother to answer on my account - I have better things to do with my time than read your response. -
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Permalink Reply by Charles on
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To be honest, I had actually intended to attend the last PPAGL meeting and become a member, but couldn't. Now I have even less interest. What's up with the PPAGL mentor programs? Did we just get a free show of the final product?
I try to understand why the "pro's" have a problem with up-and-comers....even though they were there once. Perhaps the fact that there's a new horde of digital photographers working for 'little to nothing' in compensation. Yes, that's part of the problem.....somebody got himself/herself a new shiny camera and are all to glad to "work for exposure". Who needs to hire an expensive pro when you can get the work done for free. It may not be top notch work but some are evidently happy to get what they pay for. Please understand I'm just playing devils' advocate for a moment. I think that's part of the problem with the 'pro' perspective.
Also, I can only wonder about it and put two and two together, because there has been no explanation yet why arrogance, condescension, exclusivity and a general lack of respect for the lower caste is permissible, acceptable or justifiable. I can only conclude that it's simply 'class warfare'. You finally got your LLC? Hooray for you....that doesn't automatically make you a better person or give you the right to smack around those whom don't. Got your tax ID number? Great...that in itself doesn't make you a pro. Photography is your sole source of income? Great! What are you doing hanging around in a forum filled the with hobbyist and the 'newbies' you loathe? Ladies and gentlemen, I submit as evidence the the true problem is for some reason, some pro's just aren't that happy with themselves despite whatever level of success they've achieved? Don't ask me why?...I only say what I see.
It's a sad comment on society when people need qualifications, licenses, degrees, or other things commonly used as status symbols in order to feel good about themselves. You have four degrees? Great....but you flunked-out bigtime in the compassion and understanding department.
There are also "pro's" who are genuine, down-to-earth, 'feet on the ground' individuals whom have no need to deal with people in any other way but peer-level, whether that 'other' person is a photographer or a farmer. So this complaint isn't against "pro's" in general...it's against those that call themselves professional just because they have a camera and shoot photos for a living, yet have some unexplainable need to spite everybody below them in the art.
Professionalism is one thing. Maturity is an entirely different and even rarer quality that a true professional should possess. Does the PPAGL offer classes and mentoring in maturation? It's direly needed from what I've seen on the outside of the group. -
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Permalink Reply by Scott Slusher on -
I worked in the business, professionally, for 20 years and several here can attest to that. I got out of the business 4 years ago to follow the path more to my soul and less to my pocketbook. I can say, without hesitation, it was the right move. Does this mean I am no longer in the same league as the so called "professional?"
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Permalink Reply by Rob Metzger on -
Wow, simply wow. No comment
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Permalink Reply by Michael Tigue on -
"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialised educational training, the purpose of which is to supply disinterested counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain"
Let's not confuse profession with artist or photographer. A professional photographer is simply a photographer engaged in a vocation for pay. Hardly something that defines a quality boundary between photographers or artists.
Some photographers simply have greater skills and artistic judgment than others. The distinction hardly depends on ones classification as a professional, or the length of time one has been employed doing it.
I reference myself as a hobbyist simply because that's what my photography is to me, a hobby. I'm not doing this for pay. Hence, I also don't require an LLC, or a studio. The label, however, isn't intended to reflect a qualitative assessment of my skill as a photographer or the quality of my photographs. I'll let others judge my skill as well as the quality of my photography.
Nevertheless, I've been shooting photographs for almost ten years as a hobby and have never felt it necessary to label myself something other than a hobbyist. -
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Permalink Reply by Ryan Armbrust on -
Well put.
Michael Tigue said:"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialised educational training, the purpose of which is to supply disinterested counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain"
Let's not confuse profession with artist or photographer. A professional photographer is simply a photographer engaged in a vocation for pay. Hardly something that defines a quality boundary between photographers or artists.
Some photographers simply have greater skills and artistic judgment than others. The distinction hardly depends on ones classification as a professional, or the length of time one has been employed doing it.
I reference myself as a hobbyist simply because that's what my photography is to me, a hobby. I'm not doing this for pay. Hence, I also don't require an LLC, or a studio. The label, however, isn't intended to reflect a qualitative assessment of my skill as a photographer or the quality of my photographs. I'll let others judge my skill as well as the quality of my photography.
Nevertheless, I've been shooting photographs for almost ten years as a hobby and have never felt it necessary to label myself something other than a hobbyist. -
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Permalink Reply by Shane E. on -
No. No. No. I know where Yono is coming from. I got started in this business 37 years ago, when I was in the womb. Peeking through my mothers yoo-hoo I was able to witness an ultra-sound (they were the "in" thing back then). It was at that moment that I knew I wanted to do something involving imaging and being born. So, after I was born, I invented a box that captured people souls and created an image of whatever I pointed it at. I called this a 'camera'. I showed it to others at my day care and they LOVED it. Soon, every 2 yr old was taking pictures and comparing. We called it photo graphy. At age 4, I was approached by a newspaper and sold them some of my best photos (images of my butt that I had shot in a mirror when I was 6 months old, everyone thinks baby butts are cute). This spread to magazines and toilet paper ads and soon, I was a hot item. I traveled great and far, training others in my photo graphy. And after years of bestowing my most excellent knowledge on others, I climbed to the top of a mountain to dispense this much-cherished knowledge to petitioners who had proven their worthy dedication via a long llama ride up the mountain. But I tired even of this and traveled again. I went from Wal-Mart to Wal-Mart sharing my deep and rich set of photo graphy skills. But, young photo graphy ers did not take pictures of their butt cheeks as I always had. I was filled with rancid and chewy disappointment. They wanted to take pictures of yoo hoos and dang wangs. Oh, how upsetting this was. So, I returned to my mountaintop to find not one, but two Starbucks had taken my spot. Each table inside occupied by a foul and sometimes hairy young photo graphy er who neither emulated my greatness nor respected it. Cast away, my butt cheeks and I dug a hole to China to enlighten their culture with the splendor that was me. But, alas, I soon tired of photo graphy of my butt cheeks and The Great Wall. So, I returned home. But I needed somewhere to vent my constipation as it had also bugged me for so long. .. but where... where could I unleash such furical raginess...?
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Permalink Reply by Shane E. on
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Rob Metzger said:Wow, simply wow. No comment
Dude. That is such a comment. You commented. It's just like when someone says "I'm speechless". If they were speechless, they wouldn't have been able to say that. Dumbfounded, maybe. Or if they say "remarkable", but they don't make a remark. That one worries me.
After you posted, the forum says you have 15 minutes to edit your 'comment'. Clearly, you commented. Sorry. -
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Permalink Reply by Yono on -
Actually, I think my "rant", which was meant as nonconfrontational, has been attacked simply because of my label as a "professional". I have no idea who in this group operates a legitimate business and who skates under radar. I did not mean to insult anyone contray to the numerous individuals that hurled pointed barbs and personal attacks. You must be very proud of yourselves.
I was trying to point out how this profession has changed though the years from when we "old" guys started. YES! I recognize the need for hobbyists and aspiring amateurs as they are the next generation of professionals. The PPAGL also recognizes that fact with their novice level, their mentor program and the on going educational programs. In fact MOST of you who have been so insulting would have greatly benefited from our last meeting where an attorney and an accountant both spoke on how to protect your business.
You can hate us for doing things the legal way as you wait for the state, city and feds to find you. I've seen a thousand self proclaimed photographers come and go in Louisville. Will you be one of those? Or will you be the next successful studio?
Michael, well defined and presented however, there was no suggestion that amateurs or novices constituted a lower level other than their lack of experience. Scott, I remember you from Perfect Photo and you have always been admired for your work. I miss your images. Always edgy and creative. And Charles, you don't have a clue. I held Photo meetups at my studio where people with point and shoots as well as Cannon D30 users attended and shared. I have mentored high school students for the Woman's League and loaned my studio to photographers in need. To label anyone you don't know as a snob is to become one yourself. Ask Alice.
AND I am speaking for myself. I am not the spokesperson for the PPAGL. I wasn't a member for years but, after attending, meeting established photographers and learning new things in the process, it showed me what a group of real professionals is all about. Obviously that is not the right fit for some of you. -
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